But look at the part Fr. amid the liturgical voices and harmonies, and the stately rhythm of their every move -, most resplendent in the finery of their vestments -. In Ukraine (also in the Patriarchate of Moscow) some sided with Constantinople, but Constantinople did not enter into communion with them. So how and why are the Old Testament canons different? So the Orthodox acknowledge that in the ancient Church, Peter was the first of the Apostles, and the Roman See was the first of the Church. My main target, rather, is only religious traditions and communities with highly developed systems of belief and power, exemplified best (but not solely) in the "big five" religions of the world (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism) - these, I contend, threaten to undermine the philosophical life. And, further, unnecessary prominence is often accorded to expensive vestments and utensils, and ornate (even pompous) architecture and paintings, thus creating a sense of theatricality and an aura of mystique, to the exclusion of an approach that is more politically engaged or one that promotes rational understanding. If the only problems faced by Orthodoxy were the ones enumerated above, I might well follow Kalaitzides in seeking valiantly, even if vainly, to rehabilitate the ecclesiological beast from within. I anticipate at least one objection: but what if the Roman See goes into schism? Another historical fact is that the pope was systematically trying to introduce religious customs which were not acceptable to the Orthodox, he was trying to latinize them. The kind of thinking that has traditionally been regarded as integral to philosophy demands deep and searching questioning and a restless and perhaps even endless exploring, but without knowing where such wondering and meandering will lead (so as not to prejudice the outcome). I dont feel you really address that issue. The journey for meaning is not a communal or comradely one, as it may have been before, but a lonely and despairing search haunted by lost causes and ideals, "broken dreams and dead music" that keep the poet up all night. There are two problems. However, it is not sufficient because knowledgeable Orthodox advocates do not dispute that. In The Clash of Civilizations, Samuel Huntington infamously stated that Europe ends where Western Christianity ends and Islam and Orthodoxy begin. I thought the Eastern Orthodox was not Catholic. So Peter had a special place that wasnt merely honorary, but an additional commission. But neoplatonism also accepts degrees of being, or levels of reality, the various levels related by emanation (or a process of overflow), in which the higher orders both cause and unify the lower. As you suggest at the end, its a matter of emphasis: the pope is Patriarch of the West, but thats not the primary lens through which we view him. Canon 3 only reaffirms this. During Lent, in a spirit of self-criticism, I wrote an installment of this newsletter But the apophaticism of the Orthodox Church is circumscribed by its cataphaticism, its authoritative positive pronouncements - stumbling-blocks to a generation, like Leivaditis's, betrayed by ideologies (of left and right) which could not accommodate the complexities, vagaries and frailties of life. If the Orthodox already possess the truth, then in what sense could they (genuinely) listen and learn from others? Learn how your comment data is processed. So the entire controversy over Constantinoples place cant obscure a central fact: the Roman See was number one in the world. Catholics have slaughtered Orthodox, e.g. Like the earlier Catholic movement of neo-Thomism, these Orthodox theologians sought to engage modern problems by means of a recovery of ancient and long-forgotten sources (ressourcement). After all, Orthodoxy can look mighty appealing. This synthesis of East and West may well involve the development within Orthodoxy of a "post-patristic theology," a theology that goes beyond the patristic tradition in a way not attempted previously, but without abandoning the spirit of the patristic era. In the meantime, a large proportion - perhaps the majority - of second-generation Greek-Australians have, for all intents and purposes, lost the faith of their parents and ancestors. Allow me to Your email address will not be published. For these reasons I have come to regard religious commitment as incompatible with philosophy. So for 500 years theyve been fed a steady dose of anti-Catholicism, attacking anything that looks strange to them, and this bias has become so ingrained that the average person will look with utter disdain upon Catholicism. WebWhy did I choose the Catholic Church and not the Orthodox Church? Following Russell's lead, I want here to outline why I have chosen to sever my ties with the Orthodox Church, after many years of participation in the church and reflection on its history and teachings. The other 13 autocephalous Churches served notice that they were striking neither Constantinople nor Moscow from their diptychs, so they would be remaining in communin, so they had better resolve the matter between them, which was done in a month or so, and Moscow put Constantinople back in its diptychs and resumed communion. In what follows, I will outline some of these challenges faced by the Orthodox Church in the modern era (I am very much indebted to Vrasidas Karalis's withering critique of contemporary Greek Orthodoxy in The Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity). WebPLAY 114: Why Not Anglican, Why Not Orthodox, Why Catholic? So your friends argument would argue against the New Testament Church. If we do not believe that, then entering into dialogue would be a waste of time.". Maxwell cites, in the broader context of Lk. ("Nick") Trakakis is Senior Lecturer in Philosophy at the Australian Catholic Philosophy. who remembers what happened yesterday? By Ross Douthat. The ABCs Religion and Ethics portal is home to religious reporting & analysis, ethical discussion & philosophical discovery, and inspiring stories of faith and belief. if oriental christians had any power whatsoever they wouldve done the same, but they were neither numerous nor did they stand any chance against islam to pose a threat. Josiah Trenhams book on the East/West split. In the United States in 1966, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops passed Norms II and IV that bound all persons from age fourteen to abstain from meat on Fridays of Lent and through the year. that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again. Equally troubling, there is little desire to look beyond the Christian faith and explore non-Christian religions, particularly non-Abrahamic and Eastern religions, in a spirit of sincere openness - that is, with an openness to being corrected and enlightened by the other, and not simply seeking to prove a point or convert one's interlocutor (this kind of aggression being an occupational hazard of the philosopher). (Notice that this, for them, is distinct from primacy.) Also, the filioque I think would come here. Dennis if you are Orthodox then I invite you to think of this as a jurisdictional issue. But isn't this disingenuous? Even the last clause, it would seem, could give no offence to the most sensitive on the papal claims, for it implies a wonderful power in the rank of Old Rome, if a see is to rank next to it because it happens to be New Rome. Of course these remarks only refer to the wording of the canon which is carefully guarded; the intention doubtless was to exalt the see of Constantinople, the chief see of the East, to a position of as near equality as possible with the chief see of the West. I am not a follower of any religion. He then established the Church at Antioch. in Poland, under the blessings of the pope, has nothing to do with imagination. WebAugust 30, 2022. With some nuance, the difference of the two questions will lead you down a profitable path. He refers to the casting of lots as a Divine selection of Matthias, not a human one (obviously its divine, but he wants to remove any human element) and says that, ever since, bishops were chosen by human beings and not by God. For example, I once saw a blog that argued in favour of the Immaculate Conception. But my attention was initially caught by the fiery and much maligned leader of the Greek Orthodox Church in Australia, Archbishop Stylianos (Harkianakis), with whom I shared a love of poetry and of our fellow Cretan, Nikos Kazantzakis. The answer is easy. You are those who have continued with me in my trials;and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Dominique Janicaud, in his criticism of the recent theological turn in French phenomenology, made a similar point: "The dice are loaded and choices made; faith rises majestically in the background.". So-called "heretical" theologies (Arianism, Nestorianism), crushed by the power of the church and state, continue to be treated by philosophers as heresies, rather than viewed as genuine or live possibilities. Second,Pope Benedict is Patriarch of the West. Both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church acknowledge each others Apostolic origins, and express this in a particularly beautiful tradition. I was just browsing through your blog and found this post! Second, this points to Catholicism anyways. Ware's response is that, by listening to (non-Orthodox) others, the Orthodox stand to better understand the truth they have been entrusted with. Rome has Apostolic Succession through both the Apostles Peter and Paul. These are points that Ive seen broadly conceded. You read the article with your eyes closed. wow. He was not entirely mistaken. And its claim to fame for being one of the Patriarchates at all is because of its connection to Rome. He then pointed to all the leaders of the Old Testament being directly appointed by God, and makes the claim that it shouldnt be any different in the New Testament. The epistemic tools needed are different. Constantinople was added as a fifth Patriarchate, a controversial move initially opposed by the pope (but eventually accepted). June 23, 2023. Web8 Reasons Why Im Catholic not Orthodox Why what starts in schism ends in heresy Knowland Knows Nov 21, 2022 14 18 1. When I enter there, in a church of the Greeks. What is lacking is not merely an informed awareness of non-Christian religions, but also a genuine engagement and dialogue with them, where this presupposes attentive listening, an attitude of respect and humility, and above all a readiness to undergo a possibly painful and disruptive transformation in one's worldview. At the official level, the response not unexpectedly has been one of silence or denial, repeating the rhetoric of victimization and entrenching a defensive siege mentality. In line with the hierarchical structure of the church, but in contrast to the official designation of the liturgy as "the work of the people" (laos), the liturgy has become the preserve of the clergy, with minimal or no active participation from the laity. Their world or metaphysics had more in common with the complicated emanationist schemes of the pagan neoplatonists than with the dualism and even deism of many contemporary Christians. I know the post is for people trying to decide between the two, but if such a person were to take these arguments to an Orthodox, I feel like the Orthodox would say, Yes, youre right; the primacy among the bishops is definitely with Rome. Funny though that we are probably all laymen.Guess our leaders have failed us,been over a thousand years and nothing solved. His disciple, the Evangelist Mark, founded the Church at Alexandria. The arguing between our churches over who should be the greatest is entirely unedifying. The problem with the Orthodox emphasis on ritual and on aesthetics more broadly is that it too-often serves as a compensatory measure for the church's neglect of the internal life of the individual (for instance, existential and moral difficulties) and the social life of the broader community (like the plight of Indigenous Australians). This is the case, for example, with Brian McLaren's "emergent church" movement and Peter Rollins's Ikon assemblies, both seeking to redeem and reinvent religion rather than doing away with it altogether. your sex like a half-opened shell laid there by a distant tempest, your breasts two small heliotropes amongst the unforgettable things of the morning -, revolutionaries are concerned about the future, lovers about the past, poets have taken responsibility for both. It is a fact that the schism happened because the pope back then changed the Creed to include the Filioque WITHOUT the consent of the Eucumenical Synode. WebFed-up Catholics Shouldnt Turn to Orthodoxy Michael Lofton 3/2/2022 Download Audio only: Michael Lofton of the Reason and Theology podcast shares his experience of leaving with whom will I now continue my wanderings in the infinite? and the only thing you orthodox talk about all the time is bad popes and the filioque clause which was explained by catholic theologians like 1000 times by now. (As the Catholics did when their three popes became one). First, its fundamentally inconsistent with the ecclesiology proclaimed by either the Orthodox or Catholic Church. June 23, 2023. Orthodox one, you are welcome.. If God can preserve the Church collective in the faith, preventing an Apostasy, He can certainly preserve the local Roman church in the faith. (Moreover, the appeal to the need for truth is what Ive had to put up with from squabbling protestants for the past few years. I am pessimistic about the prospects of the Orthodox hierarchy heeding this salutary warning. It is not the way that faithful Orthodox view matters of theology. You are not willing to listen. Some Orthodox reject them as entirely wrong, but others simply say its just either beyond our knowledge. I mentioned some of the above, but I was just flabergasted to hear that he actually thinks those passages I alluded to are applicable to EVERY believer. II. It was no accident that oppressive forms of communism took hold in Eastern European countries with Orthodox backgrounds. Other extras are often seen as possible, but beyond what God had revealed to the Church. I think Purgatory is often seen in this light. Leivaditis's early poetry is heavily influenced by a doctrinaire communist outlook, his participation in the communist resistance movement during the Second World War and the civil war, and his subsequent detention and exile in various camps across the Aegean islands. Simply idolising the past and demonising the West will no longer do. Why doesnt the Church allow women to be priests? unknown and only sometimes in our nightmares do we find part of our true self -, violet-coloured compassion of the twilight which spreads a bit of regal lace on homes for the aged, the divine right of the poor over the possessions of others, the lonesome steps of a passer-by which remind you of your entire life, and my father, dead for so many years now, comes each night and gives me advice in my sleep, "but father," I tell him, "you forget that we are the same age", oh my lost generation - we took great roads, we remained in the middle, the hour of our death is written on all the clocks, childhood friends, where are you? serbs killed many muslims and catholics in bosnia and albania (ofc they say its only propaganda), and bulgarians did the same to remaining muslims in their country. Tikhon, do you view the modern Western canonized saints as illegitimate? There arent many issues within apologetics that require as much sensitivity as this one. Additionally,Peter has the ability to speak on behalf of the Twelve, as he did in Acts 2, and Matthew 16:15-16, and so forth. Catholic Cardinal and theologian Yves Congar wrote: The East never accepted the regular jurisdiction of Rome, nor did it submit to the judgment of Western bishops. In other words, I think option 2 points towards the Catholic Church, too. Such is not the case. I do understand what Jesus meant when he said I pray that they be one. How about the continuous attacks on Greek soil for example by the Venetians etc etc Read some history of Patras, Crete, both in Greece, I come from there and know my countrys history. Byzantium never had Andrewite Succession. ", On the positive side, the new movement has developed a range of proposals aimed at renewing the life of the Orthodox Church, so that it can better meet the challenges it faces at the dawn of the third millennium. He also argues that Peter was chosen personally by Christ, not democratically elected in a conclave like most popes, and therefore the authority that was given to Peter was only given to him and not to successors since they were not personally elected by Christ Himself. WebWe would like to show you a description here but the site wont allow us. for now we leaf through the old calendars in case we retrieve something from the years -, truly, what goes on in reality? They more or less readily concede the keys of the kingdom passages in the NT, and acknowledge Romes importance in settling early disputes among the patriarchs. WebSo why havent I, personally, converted to Eastern Orthodoxy? I will mention only two of them. And of course, even in the case of the replacement of Matthias, while the final decision is done through casting lots, the group of believers chose the two candidates (Acts 1:23). 288. Your post above argues for the Church of Rome always have a place of primacy above the other patriarchs. But . Indeed, over the last decade, Orthodox theologians in Greece have placed the theology of the 1960s in serious question, and have called for a more authentic and informed renewal and reformation of the Orthodox Church. thats why the sack of constantinople was triggered anyway. Although my position here is not particularly innovative, I do hope to briefly raise some crucial philosophical questions that are often neglected in historical scholarship on the central texts and claims of Christianity. This ancient Greek phrase - which can be translated as "Here I stand committed, abiding by the voice within" - has something of the spirit of Socrates about it. One historical fact is the siege of Kontantinople by crusaders, which the pope blessed, and the killing and atrocieties on the Orthodox population. The East jealously protected its autonomous way of life. But this is not the only or even the chief reason why I have chosen to leave the Orthodox Church. This clip is taken from a recent livestream with Dr. Scott Hahn. The pope has primacy, not supremacy, which means that he can change something only when the synode is in agreement, not impose his will on the other christian leaders. Specifically, in the case of these various intra-Orthodox schisms, was one side not part of the true Church? the grown-ups are in the cafes, the crickets in the evening are attempting to pronounce the ineffable, mother would open the letters with her hairpin, our life is a mystery which we cannot portion out, a sorrow in the afternoons like the aroma from old books, and each time we pass by a pedestrian it is as though we are saying "goodbye" to the whole of life -, do you remember our erotic moments, Anna? Sadly, things have not greatly progressed since then. These other, presumably logical questions, are simply not how the Orthodox think or pray. Not really sure how to respond to this.. We were just joking around ;) I'm an italophile myself but I don't change my religion because of it. Todays celebration is an invitation extended to both our Churches to the unity of the Cross. I am also a convert to orthodoxy . Rome intervened to safeguard the observation of legal rules, to maintain the orthodoxy of faith and to ensure communion between the two parts of the church, the Roman see representing and personifying the WestIn according Rome a primacy of honour, the East avoided basing this primacy on the succession and the still living presence of the apostle Peter. WebTrent Horn 11/19/2018. The Orthodox Church isnt ONE. Wouldn't dialogue, in such circumstances, be nothing more than a thinly disguised apologetics? WebThe Eastern Orthodox Church believes Jesus Christ is the head of their church. N.N. When a logical principal as fundamental as the principle of non-contradiction - which holds that no statement of the form "p and not-p" (for example, "James is married and James is not married") can be true - is flouted by the doctrines that God is one and three, and that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human, some especially strong reason or evidence is required in order to accept such doctrines. There is need for Catholics, especially priests, to engage in a convincing Apologetics when confronted by Catholics tempted to become Eastern Orthodox, or by members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches claiming to represent the orthodoxy of the Church before the tragic Schism between East and West, developing after 1054 A.D. Theology, on this picture, does not allow for radical or genuine questioning: if we start from a position of faith, then our questioning or seeking begins by already having found what it searches - namely, God. This is problematic for two reasons. In 2004, a similar situatin erupted when the EP struck the Archbishop of Athens from the diptychs, supported by the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem (both from the EPs jursidcition in Greece), threatening to revoke the Tomos that regulates the jurisdiction between the autocephalous Church of Greece and the EP over Greece (another myth-Orthodox Church boudaries, following Caesaropapism, goes along political boundaries. A useful starting-point here is Heidegger's objection to the very idea of "Christian philosophy." WebRoman Catholicism is the largest of the three major branches of Christianity. WebAnswer: No, the Eastern Orthodox have a slightly different canon of Scripture. Thus, all Roman Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Roman Catholic.